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change to snap system

 
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kaylon
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Dundee

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:13 am    Post subject: change to snap system Reply with quote

The current snap system is very poor....

This is going to be very hard to explain...but the simple truth is you NEVER want a primative to re-size itself if you move it with a different grid setting active. DeleD does this ALL the time at lower grid sizes and it's killing me. And god forbid you want to do any vert editing on a larger grid scale...as your selected verts will just collaps to a point..the vert selection should stay "set" and only the closest vert should snap to a grid point.

In Object mode the primative should snap to the grid...in face mode the face should snap to grid..in vert mode the vert should snap to grid...but the primative or selected sub-object should never, ever be re-sized unless the user is the one doing the scaling.

The centre snap mode is pointless...why would I ever want to use this Smile ..I want primatives to snap within a grid..not along the lines in a pretty random fashion I might add, I want my selection to snap to a grid point. This centre snapping will also create probs when trying to construct other geometry to connect to the snapped geometry. This snapping will probably also create export issues concerning floating points and absolute postitions of the verts of a model or level. verts need to be on a grid point...not floating around in space...sorry to say but I feel that this snap option...is not an option.

The current system is forcing me to stick to one grid setting and that is not an efficent way to create level geometry. I'm scared to change the grid settings as if I then move a primative it will magically re-scale to fit the new grid. This will not really do, and I feel it should be looked into as part of the current development schedule.

K
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Daaark
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 2696
Location: Ottawa, Canada

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Confused Center snap mode is certainly not useless. I have it in use all the time for certain types of objects. These objects are finished objects however, not objects in the middle of editing, for obvious reasons.

Maybe you don't know about the quick grid size toggling? CTRL+ and CTRL-. It will change by powers of 2. You can do this when editing your objects to get the proper grid size right away and not have to worry about any resizing issues.

I do this when switching from broad objects, to smaller objects that need a grid size of 2 (in my scale) such as picture frames along the wall, and other small decorations. If I want to move the object, I might set it to center snap and then quick toggle the grid into the size of what I want it to snap around and then I move it freely, without fear of any snapping resizes.

I've used a ton of editors over the years, and I've never had any program work so nice for things like this. It lets me work freely on any object in it's own object space size. Keeping everything lined up perfectly. If something resized, just hit undo and move it again after quick toggling to the proper grid size.

Just trying to help you out. Welcome to the forums.
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Jeroen
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Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5334
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: change to snap system Reply with quote

kaylon wrote:
This is going to be very hard to explain...but the simple truth is you NEVER want a primative to re-size itself if you move it with a different grid setting active. DeleD does this ALL the time at lower grid sizes and it's killing me. And god forbid you want to do any vert editing on a larger grid scale...as your selected verts will just collaps to a point..the vert selection should stay "set" and only the closest vert should snap to a grid point.


I disagree. I feel that this is behaviour would be very confusing to the user. You have a set of selected vertices and only one is snapped to the grid, and the user can't tell which one it is going to be... too confusing really. The reason why vertex snapping works the way it does is because it is intented to be used on pretty much square objects, like walls and doors. This all with levelediting in mind, where objects like that are common.

kaylon wrote:

In Object mode the primative should snap to the grid...in face mode the face should snap to grid..in vert mode the vert should snap to grid...but the primative or selected sub-object should never, ever be re-sized unless the user is the one doing the scaling.


Agreed.

kaylon wrote:

The centre snap mode is pointless...why would I ever want to use this Smile ..I want primatives to snap within a grid..not along the lines in a pretty random fashion I might add, I want my selection to snap to a grid point.


Which is exactly what center snap mode is doing. If you enable Draw Center in the Options screen, you can see how objects are snapped also. Smile

kaylon wrote:

This centre snapping will also create probs when trying to construct other geometry to connect to the snapped geometry. This snapping will probably also create export issues concerning floating points and absolute postitions of the verts of a model or level. verts need to be on a grid point...not floating around in space...sorry to say but I feel that this snap option...is not an option.


Funny you're mentioning this. DeleD 1.36 exports its vertex data as integers (rounded floats actually). This is not good when your objects are very, very small because you loose accuracy. Vertices do not need to be on a grid point. Therefor, we are exporting vertices as floats in 1.4. Snapping will not cause problems in this area.

kaylon wrote:

The current system is forcing me to stick to one grid setting and that is not an efficent way to create level geometry. I'm scared to change the grid settings as if I then move a primative it will magically re-scale to fit the new grid. This will not really do, and I feel it should be looked into as part of the current development schedule.


I will look into the current snapping methods later today and post back any additional ideas. Do note that we're definately looking for improvements, also on the snapping part. I just have a feeling you might be overlooking some of the current possibilities right now. Smile
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kaylon
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Dundee

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Think the thing that is most limiting is when in vertex editing mode on a large grid....

Lets say you have made your base room or level section and the walls are 32 thick...your needing to do do some alterations and move some verts 512 units up....you select your verts and with the gris set at 512 (so you dont have to count boxes) you move them up....they will collapse to a single vert at the grid point.

That's very annoying...haveing to sit and count boxes is not intuative Smile

I will agree that the centre snap will have uses for placements and not as much for modelling...but the vert snap system I think needs some refinement when in vert mode anyway.

K
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hpesoj
DeleD PRO user


Joined: 16 Oct 2004
Posts: 184

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see Kaylon's point, and I agree that components in the current mode should snap to the grid, based on the vertex that is nearest the grid, not all the vertices. This would be very useful for certain things. I like to model on a fairly big grid size for basic map layout, but certain walls really need to be thinner than that grid size, and if I switch grid sizes, move the vertices, then switch back, it's almost certain that I will move the primitive and all the vertices will snap back to place.

I can also see the possibly advantage of snapping the selection to the grid, rather than the individual components. However, I can also see the advantage of having all the selected components snap to the grid separately. Maybe an option should be made, so users can toggle between: 'group snapping', and 'individual snapping', depending on their preference?
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Jeroen
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Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 5334
Location: The Netherlands

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hpesoj wrote:
I can also see the possibly advantage of snapping the selection to the grid, rather than the individual components. However, I can also see the advantage of having all the selected components snap to the grid separately. Maybe an option should be made, so users can toggle between: 'group snapping', and 'individual snapping', depending on their preference?


Now that I can live with. A quick way of toggling that behaviour (F12 perhaps) would be useful. I'll see if I can get something like that working in 1.4. Smile
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kaylon
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Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Dundee

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds superb... Smile

I will say sorry for myself now Smile ...as it's my nature to find things that I see as problems but do not always have an answer for....but I feel for anything to develop possible problams need to be highlighted so others... like hpesoj can then shed light on issues and further improve the development of a tool or project.
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