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Fragmotion
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Daaark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 11:59 am    Post subject: Fragmotion Reply with quote

Anyone here using Milkshape, specifically for bone animations?
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Mr.Fletcher
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, me. What do you want to know?
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Daaark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wondering about the bone animator in general. I downloaded it yesterday to check it out. I'm still not sure what to think about it. It doesn't seem to offer any features other than just saving keyframes?

Can I lock joints at a proper distance? So I can't like drag an elbow out 2 feet from the body by accident? Or does Milkshape just let you deform the skeleton in all kinds of nasty ways with no protection?

I found it difficult just to try and animate the default skeleton doing a basic wave. Because it seemed like there was no nautral way to move the elbow out without knowing if you are within the realistic limits of it's movement?

Am I supposed to save every animation out to it's own file? It seems like it was made only for files that store all their animations in one big loop?

Is it possible to animate 2 skeletons?
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Mr.Fletcher
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A reason why I want DeleD to get a Bone Animator. Alas, Milkshape's layout is that simple that only minimalistic features are given.
Yes, there are no options to keep the distance of one joint to another. I'm afraid I got used to it.
Quote:
Am I supposed to save every animation out to it's own file? It seems like it was made only for files that store all their animations in one big loop?

The way I was doing it is to set two or three keyframes after the end of one animation and then begin with the next animation. I have some kind of system in my model loader and I pass the keyframes where one animation begins and ends to that loader and it handles everything like repeating the animation. There are no features that support multiple animations in one file i'd know of. For Halflife model files, it packs several files into one hl model file.

I don't know about other programs - have you tried Anim8or? Also, I read that they were working on MS2, but who knows if that's still true..

//edit
Athough the answer will probably be no, what do you mean by
Quote:
Is it possible to animate 2 skeletons?
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Daaark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mean animate 2 skeletons at once in one animation?

I'm not making a FPS, like everyone else seems to be making. I need to have seperate animation files for hundreds of little sequences. And I need to make things like this... it requires 2 or 3 skeletons to interact together.





(if those didn't load^, here are the links)
http://www.ringinsider.com/wrestlingmedia/photos/gifs/powerbomb3.gif
http://www.ringinsider.com/wrestlingmedia/photos/gifs/tigerdriver91.gif
http://www.ringinsider.com/wrestlingmedia/photos/gifs/3d4.gif
http://www.ringinsider.com/wrestlingmedia/photos/gifs/mist3.gif
http://www.ringinsider.com/wrestlingmedia/photos/gifs/powerbomb6.gif

I'm not sure milkshape is up to the job. Confused Also, I'm clueless about how to go about this, but I'd like to stop putting it off.

(ugh, looks like you'll have to copy those links and paste them into a new window address bar to get them to work) Sorry.
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Mr.Fletcher
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you mean and no, Milkshape definitely can't do that. I wonder what other (cheap or free) programs are able for those applications.
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Daaark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Fletcher wrote:
I see what you mean and no, Milkshape definitely can't do that. I wonder what other (cheap or free) programs are able for those applications.
Is it possible to have detached joints? Like make 2 figures and call it one skeleton?
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Mr.Fletcher
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible internally in Milkshape but when I tried it, it couldn't be displayed proberly in my game. So you should first try it out, then.
//edit
If not, create a general root joint and then connect it to the root joins of the two objects.
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Daaark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Fletcher wrote:
It's possible internally in Milkshape but when I tried it, it couldn't be displayed proberly in my game. So you should first try it out, then.
//edit
If not, create a general root joint and then connect it to the root joins of the two objects.


I was thinking of that central root joint. It would work to easily position the two figures. I don't see why it wouldn't work under my own custom code. Just as long as MS supports it.

Now I just wonder about the joint constraints. I can't picture myself animating that tiger driver move I posted ^^ (second gif) without being able to know I wasn't moving a body part or stretching it wrongly. Confused

Long live BoneD.
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mappy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vampyre_Dark wrote:


Now I just wonder about the joint constraints. I can't picture myself animating that tiger driver move I posted ^^ (second gif) without being able to know I wasn't moving a body part or stretching it wrongly. Confused

Long live BoneD.


I own both Milkshape and Fragmotion, but only use Fragmotion for animating people (but call me a newbie at animating).
All I know is that if you want to animate properly a character using Inverse Kinematics you will have indeed to use joints constraints and chain terminators. This way you will avoid having body parts stretched ...

Actually, Fragmotion has no joints constraints possibility, but will in the next version (soon to come). But except that it supports IK very well.

As for Milkshape I don't really know.

What do you mean by "without being able to know I wasn't moving a body part". Can't you clearly see what you're doing in MS while animating ??
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Daaark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I typoed that. I meant I just didn't want to move them awkwardly, and not know it.

I know about Fragmotion, and some people say it's better than MS. But the author seems to be a ghost. It's been at version 0.70 forever, and the next version is always around the corner. He's seems to not post much on the forums. The program looks really cool, but I'm unsure about the author's commitment to maintaining the program. Then again, it's ~20$ cheaper for fragmotion in my local currency. Smile I'm looking in the forums now, and the stuff people are making seems to be impressive.

Is there a default skeleton that comes with it? What exactly is IK? I used to know, but I forget.

What about my multiple skeleton problem as it relates to fragotion? I'm very interested in anything nayone has to say on this subject.
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Mr.Fletcher
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fragmotion looks good, indeed. Strangely, I never came across it yet. I'm going to give it a try next time I need something animated. Where's the limitation between the free and the purchased version?

Vampyre_Dark wrote:
Long live BoneD.

Well said.
Anyone got some spare time to share with our Delgine team?
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mappy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Fragmo (the author nickname) works alone, and also has a full time job, but he is always replying to questions on his forum.
He recently said that the next version will maybe be for may.

There's no default skeleton that comes with the app. But building your own is really not that hard. The hardest part is attaching all the vertices to the bones and then animating the model.

IK is when ... for example you pull the hand bone and the whole arm moves, like it would in the reality if you were pulling someone's hand.
Using forward kinematics you would have to rotate each arm's bones to produce the same animation.

I will see if I can do a multiple skeleton test for you this evening, but actually I'm very tired Smile
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Daaark
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr.Fletcher wrote:
Fragmotion looks good, indeed. Strangely, I never came across it yet.
http://www.delgine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=205 Embarassed A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away.

It's hard on us hobbyist guys.

All the programs that don't cost thousands of dollars have huge holes in them functionality wise, or they are very single minded in their design. Also, all the programs assume you are making programs that revolve around a floating gun in some badly textured hallways. Laughing

A lot of times the programs die and the authors just disapear. Laughing Any money saved on buying these cheap programs, ends up becoming a moot point, because you end up having to buy a ton of them to fill in the missing feature gaps adding up to a small portion.

Why is it that some poeple have shoulders going straight across, and some have them lower in the body and shaped like a V?
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mappy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



I've done this simple test.
2 different cylinders, animated at the same time in a single animation, it works.

I suppose Bone and Bone1 could be considered as root bones here.
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