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ETA for animation and Collada export?
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Stiglr
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Joined: 18 Feb 2010
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Location: Portland, OR, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 10:29 pm    Post subject: ETA for animation and Collada export? Reply with quote

I know it's always a sore subject with software development, but these two features are, for me, crucial.

Is there an "expected" date for animation and Collada export features?
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chronozphere
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noone can do a thing as long as the exporters are not opensource (They will be in a few days Razz )

Anyway, I am too busy to dive into the collada exporter and the file specification. Someone else needs to do this, sorry!
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Grandmaster B
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The animation system in DeleD is currently very basic. Doing more complex animations and skeletons is very hard. What do you need it for?
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Stiglr
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fortunately, my needs are very basic! Very Happy

I need rotations and translations/offsets for 90% of what I'm doing. That is, moving flight surfaces like ailerons, rudders, and flaps and some more complex animation sequences for landing gears, canards, etc. These need to be able to have parent/child relationships preserved (so, for example, an aileron hinges along the trailing edge of a wing part), and time/space editable parameters (so that I can assign an elevator to move as it did historically, say for example, at 20 degrees rotated up and -25 rotated down as the full throw of the control stick).

Bones and morphing stuff would be great "cherries on top", but I don't HAVE TO have that immediately.

But hinged rotations and editable translations, yes, those are at a minimum. And all these bits of data would need to be exportable via Collada.
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Grandmaster B
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Collada your only option?

I believe it still takes at least a few month until we see some progress on this. I currently dont see anybody available to work on this. I'm working on a Yafaray render plugin and playing with the lightmapping.

Im still not sure if the animation system of DeleD fits your needs best. Maybe you need to displace the origin of the objects which is always the center of the model in DeleD.

I may help you set-up the models in Blender for exporting the animations correctly for this purpose.
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Paul-Jan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you might be wrong. The whole idea is that external developers will pick this up (who are currently not on the project). We get this particular request (animation support in the collada exporter) a lot, so chances are pretty good a developer might pick this up sooner than "in a few months".
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Stiglr
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is Collada your only option?


Yes, the flight sim I'm working with will import Collada directly, saving me any "import" of articulated models into the game engine.

We've been doing it "by hand" (or rather through text files) up til now, and it's unbeLIEVably painful, aggravating and kludgy. I'm really looking forward to seeing the back of that.

So, since my 3D modeler of choice has little to no animation support, my goal is simply to do my 3D building in AC3D, import it to (DeleD?), set up and preview animations, and export the model, complete with animations directly to the flight sim engine.

as I said previously, I'd be satisfied with simple hinged rotations, and transition/offsets. Bones and morphing would all be considered "cherries on top".
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Grandmaster B
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've once made a racing simulation and there it was mandatory to be able to place the center of mass/geometry by hand. In DeleD the objects do not have a center (or matrix). All geometry is global which can make it rather difficult to do correct mechanical simulations even if the center is recalculated to be the center of the bounding box, which is sometimes incorrect. Thats why i asked.

So if you just want to rotate objects around a manually choosen hinge you have to fiddle a lot to set the hinge/point of rotation. Bones are a completly different story i'm just wondering what technique you are require or better, what technique the flight sim supports, because you now mentioned Bones as optional features and a offset (as described above) as mandatory. I believe there was a misunderstanding.

Having a matrix, or at least a adjustable axis or center for each object is also a long requested feature.
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chronozphere
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally agree. Local coordinate spaces should have a high priority. Smile

When developing a game, It's essential to "know" about the orientations and centers of the objects, so you can manipulate your scene more easily. This was a big problem when I was working on TubeRunner. I managed to work around this by letting the first vertex of the primitive denote it's center. This is a bad and unreliable method.

Unfortunately It's alot of work to add this (At least it seems like that to me). We need to add new GUI controls. We must change various tools (merge for object to name one). Also, we need to have a clear structure in the code to be able to add this (clean up TBasePrimitive).

We need to add this for sure, but we need a good plan and an extra set of hands first. Confused
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Mossie
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the needs are:
1. Ability to move the origin of any object to a hinge/pivot point. By selection of origin of object and moving using handles. Would be nice to have dialog box data entry.
2. Enable hinge points, with key frame animation. Would be nice to have dialog box data entry.
3. Enable translation paths, based on origin of object. Would be nice to have dialog box data entry.
4. Enable parent and child relationships on any combination of rotations and translations.
4. Export animations as part of Collada export.
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Stiglr
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mossie's got it much more succinctly than I could put it.

Use his post as a laundry list.

The reason I say that bones and morphing are "nice to have's" is that they go much further than simple hinge/pivot and spatial translation/offset. They also involve shape/size changes to the objects themselves, as well as changing their positions relative to each other. That's a whole other kettle of fish.
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Grandmaster B
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thanks. I think we now understand.

Quote:
Local coordinate spaces should have a high priority.


Seems so Wink

I havent digged into the source very much but maybe it easier to leave the geometry of the objects in global space and just attach a local matrix to the objects. With the inverse local matrix it is then possible to rotate or animate (for example) around the user defined origin.

I can remember that 3DS files work this way.
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chronozphere
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grandmaster B wrote:
Ok, thanks. I think we now understand.

Quote:
Local coordinate spaces should have a high priority.


Seems so Wink

I havent digged into the source very much but maybe it easier to leave the geometry of the objects in global space and just attach a local matrix to the objects. With the inverse local matrix it is then possible to rotate or animate (for example) around the user defined origin.

I can remember that 3DS files work this way.


That might be "easier" but I don't think it's the way to go. I rather have object-space and world-space to work with (and have the code refactored a bit to support this).

The downside is that adding this feature will add new stuff to the DXS and therefore will break backwards compatibility. We should give this issue some thought. Confused

Quote:

I havent digged into the source very much


Cool.. Are you experienced with Delphi? It would be great if you could contribute "something". We definitely need more people working on this project. Smile
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Grandmaster B
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chronozphere wrote:
Cool.. Are you experienced with Delphi? It would be great if you could contribute "something". We definitely need more people working on this project. Smile


Last time i programmed in Pascal that was ten years ago. Rolling Eyes But im learning it again now for DeleD development. I hope i can at least improve the lightmapper (packing, ambient occlusion, leak fixing).

Im currently also making a Yafaray render plugin in C++ for DeleD. It exports a scene to the Yafaray render engine. ( http://www.yafaray.org )
Here is the result so far (modelled in DeleD of course): http://www.pasteall.org/pic/1606
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AWM Mars
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grandmaster B wrote:
chronozphere wrote:
Cool.. Are you experienced with Delphi? It would be great if you could contribute "something". We definitely need more people working on this project. Smile


Last time i programmed in Pascal that was ten years ago. Rolling Eyes But im learning it again now for DeleD development. I hope i can at least improve the lightmapper (packing, ambient occlusion, leak fixing).

Im currently also making a Yafaray render plugin in C++ for DeleD. It exports a scene to the Yafaray render engine. ( http://www.yafaray.org )
Here is the result so far (modelled in DeleD of course): http://www.pasteall.org/pic/1606

I have tried to use Yafray with Blender..... Shocked then I discovered I have a life lol. Yafray seems very good from what I have read and pictures seen. I especially like the network rendering ability as I have 3 linked systems here. Most lightmappers/programmes can't use more than a single core.
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