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DeleD OBJ exporter issue - making meshes huge!

 
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DreamBliss
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Joined: 03 Dec 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:11 am    Post subject: DeleD OBJ exporter issue - making meshes huge! Reply with quote

OK so I have just completed an instructional video demonstrating the issue with the default on install .obj exporter. There is one you can download but it is older so I did not install that. If this is the issue please let me know and I will try it and update the video accordingly.

This video has been replaced with a new one that includes my solution. It will be replaced again as needed.

I am looking for a PAS (Platinum Arts Sandbox) workaround right now, as Sandbox will only import .md2 and .obj. I found no importers for any of DeleD's export formats for Wings 3D or Hexagon. I have read reports that Blender may be able to work with the stuff DeleD exports, but I started using DeleD for a reason. Blender is not a program I intend to use until they fix the workflow and controls.

Anyhow I hope the author of this plugin can and will fix it, I know I would certainly appreciate it!
- DreamBliss

UPDATE!
I'm getting the same weird error with other exports. So something is wrong with my DeleD configuration, or somehow with my video card. I did find a workaround with Biturn. Managed to convert a mesh to something that was 256x256x256 but that was still twice the size of the original mesh. Then it went back to no longer working Sad Going to try a textured mesh next.

UPDATE 2!
OK it gets weirder... It looks like everything I export is read at 20 times its actual size in other programs. But here's the kicker... DeleD imports the .obj at exactly the right size! So all I can think is there has to be some setting I touched that set off a bug or something. On Windows XP SP3, very outdated hardware. I changed the grid settings, and that's all I can think could have caused this. I am very confused Sad

I hope someone can set me straight on this...
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Last edited by DreamBliss on Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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DreamBliss
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject: This qualifies for a new post... Reply with quote

I finally figured out a way to deal with this issue. May I humbly request the DeleD developer(s) fix this strange disconnect between DeleD mesh size and actual export size in the exporters?

One would assume that with a grid setting of 128x16 and a Scale size of 1 on export one would get a 1:1 ratio, so a 128x128x128 cube will export at 128x128x128. However this is not the case.

In reality DeleD exports, as near as I can tell, in a 1:20 ratio (do I have that order correct?), meaning a cube of 128x128x128 exported with the same grid settings and Scale size of 1 will be 2560x2560x2560, or 20 times as large as it appears in DeleD! However DeleD will still see the mesh as 128x128x128! The problem is nothing else will :/

So the solution (drumroll, save the thread, print etc.) is, it turns out, despite my thundering headache, very simple. If you are using a grid of 128x16 for greater compatibility with other game engines you need to export with a Scale size of 0.05. I thought it would be 0.5, because 0.5x20=1.00 (but remember I have a headache), but alas, no, not 0.1 either.

But 0.05 snaps perfectly, at the exactly correct size, insofar as I can tell, in 3DS Max, meaning it should also work in Wings 3D, Hexagon, and hopefully Sandbox. Will my mesh show up? Tune in tomorrow and we'll see!

For now I'm going to pass out. May whip up a video for this first.
- DreamBliss

P.S. The video I posted a link to in this thread will be replaced with the new video. I prefer problem/solution instead of just problem. Want to get people using DeleD not running away Very Happy
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Jeroen
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good to see you found a solution for your problem. Smile However, I'm a bit confused. Isn't it the responsibility of the program next in your pipeline to set a correct scale (read: on IMport)?

DeleD just exports to its native scale and does not know anything about what other programs expect.
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AWM Mars
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You quoted grids of 128 etc.. but 128 of what? Pixels, Meters, Miles, Yards, chains. You see the dilemma. If you decide in the settings to use a measure, then the grid would reflect that as multiples. Personally I always work on a RL scale of 1:1 in Millimeters, when working in Model Space, then scale this in World Space inside the Scene Manager, as these have a different resolution scale, and less decimal places to worry about.

As I said in a previous thread, you should always scale up your Models in a Scene Manager, never Scale Down, if you have to, but as you make the models, you already know what units of measure you used, and at a ratio of 1:1, they should not need scaling, IF the Scene Manager has been setup in advance to receive models at the same resolution.
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DreamBliss
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:28 am    Post subject: I must be missing an option here... Reply with quote

OK new video, maybe that will explain things better?
http://youtu.be/sc4hm2bUi8A

Sandbox could not load my mesh Sad

@Jeroen

Granted, it would be impractical to say the least to try to program DeleD to be psychic Razz I get what you're saying. Here is the issue however...

It isn't the import, it is the export. I have the DeleD grid set to 128x16. That means when I make a 128x128x128 cube it is precisely one larger grid unit, made up of an 8x8 grid of 16 units. When this is exported, it should still be 128x128x128 anywhere else. I have Max set to 16x8. Not sure what the Wings 3D and Hexagon settings are, but I know that the cube should fit on their Perspective View grids.

So I have DeleD set up at 128x16, and I have Max set up at 16x8nth, which means that they read the same. Both have 8x8 grids inside each larger grid unit, and these smaller units are 16 each. Both are not set to any specific unit size. I don't know how to do this in DeleD. In Max it is set to Generic Units. So a cube exported from DeleD at 128x128x128 should come in as 128x128x128 in Max. But instead it exports as 128x128x128, and comes into Max at 2560x2560x2560 - 20 times larger!

Not only that, the same mesh imported into Wings 3D, Hexagon, and the solitary time I got it into Sandbox, is also very large. So big they cover and extend past the grid in the Perspective View for both Wings 3D and Hexagon! One program can be wrong, but 3?

So as far as I can tell this is an exporter issue, not an importer issue. But perhaps AWM Mars will help prove me wrong.

@AWM Mars
You have mentioned this setting of unit type elsewhere around the forums. Is there some way to set the unit type in DeleD? I will continue to search and look around, but so far I have not found this setting. If it exists this may be my issue, which means a 3rd revision of my tutorial if I can fix it.

Thanks both of you for your help!
- DreamBliss
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Jeroen
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject: Re: I must be missing an option here... Reply with quote

DreamBliss wrote:

Not only that, the same mesh imported into Wings 3D, Hexagon, and the solitary time I got it into Sandbox, is also very large. So big they cover and extend past the grid in the Perspective View for both Wings 3D and Hexagon! One program can be wrong, but 3?

So as far as I can tell this is an exporter issue, not an importer issue. But perhaps AWM Mars will help prove me wrong.


None of the programs is wrong - they just handle their units differently. A generic unit in DeleD can differ greatly from a generic unit in Max or any other program.

Try the other way around by creating a cube in Max and importing it in DeleD. I would assume it to be rendered very small in DeleD.

Anyway, there are usually 3 ways to solve this.

- Just model on a smaller scale in DeleD.
- Provide a scale factor on export from DeleD.
- Provide a scale factor in import in whatever program you use.

I know the OBJ/3DS importer and exporter plugins have scale options so you could try exporting to OBJ/3DS with a scale of 0.05 or something, and then import that into Max.
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trucker2000
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Joined: 11 May 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a problem you will find with any modeling program you use.
I had this same problem with deled when I started using it. I use Torque for making my games. My problem was always huge meshes when exported from deled and imported into torque. I fixed this problem by figuring out what torques size is compared to deled. What I found is that deled's default grid size is about 3 feet (1 meter) per grid square. Now I just make sure my models fit that size and have no problems anymore. That's what you are going to need to do in order to figure out how large or small to make you models in deled. (You'll have to do this with any modeling program you use.)
Hope that helps.
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AWM Mars
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'dimensions' used in creating a model, is whatever you have designated it to be. DeleD deals with Units, based upon Point Size. So if you make a model 150 Units long, when it is rendered in the Scene Manager, exactly what those Unit sizes represent, it what you set within the Scene Manager itself. If you change between millimetres and kilometres, the scale of everything changes, because that is what you are declaring a Unit of the Model to be.

As I have posted on other threads, a Scene Manager renders all types of objects, which can be as large as the Universe, or as small as a pin head, however you can make a pin head the size of the universe, and vice versa as a model, until you tell the Scene Manager what the relationship is between the size of a pin head, and a universe is, you have no relative benchmark.

On Importing, most modelling programmes have functions, whereby you can declare what the unit measure of the model relates to i.e. feet, millimetres, miles etc. It is the Scene Manager that has to make the correlation between the Unit height of the viewer (Avatar) and the surrounding rendered environment.
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Last edited by AWM Mars on Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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DreamBliss
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:47 am    Post subject: Hey thanks for the replies! Reply with quote

So I guess we're not really talking about an issue here. DeleD is just designed with different generic units in mind.

Jeroen, I assume you're the codding/design guy 'round these parts? What was the generic unit in DeleD designed around? I mean is it equivalent to feet, meters, or something else? Also what is the default on install grid settings for DeleD? I should have written it down but I didn't :/ I can uninstall and re-install if need be.

I will do as trucker2000 suggests. I will restore the default grid in DeleD and try to figure out its measurements compared to Wings 3D, Hexagon, and Sandbox, if I can get a mesh to import again. Make a video for DeleD detailing that for others perhaps.

I will also export various cubes from Sandbox if I can figure it out.

I appreciate all your help!
- DreamBliss
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Jeroen
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I'm one of the original DeleD coders.

DeleD's unit is not equivalent to feets, meters or anything and I actually don't remember default grid settings (it's been a while Wink). Anyay, when designing DeleD, I decided a unit should be an integer value and let OpenGL decide how big things should be rendered on screen. On export to other programs, people usually use an exporter plugin which in most cases supports a Scale option so they can get things as large or small as needed for those other programs.

If we can figure out the difference between a DeleD unit and, let's say, a 3DS Max unit, we could supply default scale values on export, more or like you suggest in your video.
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